Qualcomm Announces Snapdragon 865 and 765(G): 5G For All in 2020, All The Detailsby Andrei Frumusanu on December 4, 2019 1:50 PM EST
- Posted in
- Snapdragon 865
- Snapdragon 765
We’re here in Maui for the second day of Qualcomm’s fourth annual Snapdragon summit, for what is probably the most exciting part of the event, as we cover the disclosure of the intricate details of the brand new Snapdragon 865 and 765 SoCs that the company had briefly announced yesterday.
Indeed, this year, Qualcomm isn’t launching just one SoC, but rather two new platforms at the same time. The Snapdragon 865 is self-explanatory in its positioning; as a direct successor to the Snapdragon 855 we expect the new chip to represent the best Qualcomm is able to deliver, and be the silicon that powers most of 2020’s flagship devices. The new top-model this year is accompanied by the new Snapdragon 765 and 765G SoCs. As with other 7-series models since the launch of the new range, the new generation adds of the new features introduced with the new Snapdragon 865, at a lower performance level and a more affordable price for what is becoming an increasingly popular device category.
|Qualcomm Snapdragon Flagship SoCs 2019-2020|
|CPU||1x Cortex A77
@ 2.84GHz 1x512KB pL2
3x Cortex A77
@ 2.42GHz 3x256KB pL2
4x Cortex A55
@ 1.80GHz 4x128KB pL2
4MB sL3 @ ?MHz
|1x Kryo 485 Gold (A76 derivative)
@ 2.84GHz 1x512KB pL2
3x Kryo 485 Gold (A76 derivative)
@ 2.42GHz 3x256KB pL2
4x Kryo 485 Silver (A55 derivative)
@ 1.80GHz 4x128KB pL2
2MB sL3 @ 1612MHz
|GPU||Adreno 650 @ ? MHz
|Adreno 640 @ 585 MHz
|DSP / NPU||Hexagon 698
15 TOPS AI
7 TOPS AI
|4x 16-bit CH
@ 2133MHz LPDDR4X / 33.4GB/s
@ 2750MHz LPDDR5 / 44.0GB/s
3MB system level cache
|4x 16-bit CH
@ 1866MHz LPDDR4X 29.9GB/s
3MB system level cache
|ISP/Camera||Dual 14-bit Spectra 480 ISP
1x 200MP or 64MP with ZSL
2x 25MP with ZSL
4K video & 64MP burst capture
|Dual 14-bit Spectra 380 ISP
1x 48MP or 2x 22MP
|8K30 / 4K120 10-bit H.265
Dolby Vision, HDR10+, HDR10, HLG
720p960 infinite recording
|4K60 10-bit H.265
HDR10, HDR10+, HLG
(Paired with external X55 only)
(LTE Category 24/22)
DL = 2500 Mbps
7x20MHz CA, 1024-QAM
UL = 316 Mbps
3x20MHz CA, 256-QAM
(5G NR Sub-6 + mmWave)
DL = 7000 Mbps
UL = 3000 Mbps
|Snapdragon X24 LTE
DL = 2000Mbps
7x20MHz CA, 256-QAM, 4x4
UL = 316Mbps
3x20MHz CA, 256-QAM
We’ll start off with the whole story on the Snapdragon 865, and in particular one surprising aspect what we didn’t expect from the SoC this year; its lack of an integrated modem, and what the story behind the design choice.
No Modem Integration This Year?
The one aspect of the new Snapdragon 865 that overshadows all other new characteristics is the fact that Qualcomm designed it without an integrated modem. Qualcomm already announced this change yesterday during the day 1 of the event, without much context into the matter. It’s been fun seeing the reactions of various media and commenters theorising as to why this would be. It’s also one of the very first aspects that we wanted to have clarified by Qualcomm:
The choice to not integrate the modem this year was a highly practical one, stemming from the complexity of 5G and the platform. There are actually more nuances to this though, and one thing that Qualcomm wants to make clear, is that this isn’t just a matter of the company's technical ability to actually create a chip with an integrated 5G modem; it’s keen to point out the Snapdragon 765, also announced today, which does exactly this.
Instead, the technical difficulty of the 5G modem platform is actually on the platform and device side itself. As this will be the very first wide-range 5G implementation of a lot of OEM vendors who use Qualcomm’s chips, there will be a large number of designs who will be integrating 5G for the first time. The problem is that this requires a quite large development increase for the vendors creating the devices: they need to make sure their RF systems, antenna designs, as well as certifications of the systems are in full order. The nature of the 5G design complexity means that this process in a device’s development cycle this time around is actually quite a lot more complicated and more time-consuming than what we’ve seen from past 4G phones.
Qualcomm’s solution to the problem, in order to facilitate the vendor’s device development cycle, is to separate the modem from the rest of the application processor, at least for this generation. The X55 modem has had a lead time to market, being available earlier than the Snapdragon 865 SoC by several months. OEM vendors thus would have been able to already start developing their 2020 handset designs on the X55+S855 platform, focusing on getting the RF subsystems right, and then once the S865 becomes available, it would be a rather simple integration of the new AP without having to do much changes to the connectivity components of the new device design.
Qualcomm’s explanation makes a lot of sense in practical terms, and would bring time-to-market advantages. The company explains that in the future, it would re-integrate the modem back into the SoC, and this generation’s choices just made more sense for today’s situation in the market. Qualcomm isn’t the only one to have made such a choice, Samsung’s Exynos 990 SoC makes the same exact design decisions, shipping the main SoC as a simple application processor without any modem, although we don’t have any official backstory on their rationale for the design choice.
The decision of shipping AP+discrete modem does have some disadvantages though. Motherboard PCB complexity does go up this generation, more so than competitors solutions which are able to integrate 5G modems (Such as the HiSilicon Kirin 990 5G, or the MediaTek Dimensity 1000). We also expect some compromises in terms of battery efficiency due to the silicon overhead, however as a counter-argument, Apple’s iPhones always have had separate AP+modem solutions, and the latest generation this year had amongst the strongest battery life performance of any device out there, even with a competing Intel modem.
As for the X55 modem itself: It’s the same piece that Qualcomm announced earlier this year, and this time around promises full global 5G connectivity ability (the X50’s support was more limited). The modem chip is manufactured on the TSMC’s 7nm process node, and the most important fact about the new combination is that the Snapdragon 865 SoC is exclusively tied to the X55 modem. This means that Qualcomm is selling the 865 SoC only as a pair with the X55 modem, and they do not offer support with any past 4G modem. In theory vendors could use another modem, but since they only sell the new platform as a pair anyway, it would make very little sense for anybody to do this.
One question that also came up is on whether vendors, for whatever reason, would still be able to develop 4G phones with the Snapdragon 865+X55 platform. Qualcomm says this would be possible if you essentially just ignore the X55’s 5G capabilities, but they don’t see any reason for any vendor to actually do this. In essence, bar any abnormal decision from some vendors, all Snapdragon 865 devices in 2020 will be full 5G devices.
The Snapdragon 865 Application Processor: TSMC 7nm N7P
With the elephant in the room of the modem configuration being out of the way, we come to the actual Snapdragon 865 application processor.
For me, the biggest surprise of the new chipset was Qualcomm’s revelation that the chip is the fact that it’s manufactured by TSMC on the improved 7nm “N7P” node – this is the same manufacturing process as used by Apple’s A13 chipset. For the longest time were expecting this generation to be manufactured on Samsung’s 7nm EUV process (7LPP), given as the two companies had announcement nearly 2 years ago. It seems that the announcement was actually about the new Snapdragon 765, which does come on the 7LPP process node, and which we'll be covering in more detail later on in the article.
Qualcomm only's comment is that their process node choices were based on various considerations, including volume. Reading between the lines, it’s possible that Qualcomm wasn’t as confident in Samsung’s ability to manufacture the large quantities needed for the new chip. I’ve also heard murmurs from other sources that Samsung’s process simply doesn’t have as good performance and leakage characteristics as TSMC, and in flagship parts, those aspects have to be taken higher consideration than in say a premium- or mid-range SoC. In any case, it’s a big blow to Samsung’s foundry business as having the design win this year was quite critical, as I do not expect them to win the 2021 flagship contract due to TSMC’s 5nm leadership.
As for the choice between TSMC’s N7P and N7+ (+ is the EUV node), it seems HiSilicon is currently the only client for the node for the time being, with the Kirin 990 5G being the only chipset manufactured on the node until later in 2020. It’s most likely that TSMC here simply doesn’t yet have the EUV volume capacity and yields to fulfil Qualcomm’s demand at this point in time, essentially being in a similar situation as Samsung, with the only difference being that TSMC has a viable high-volume DUV-based process ready as an alternative.
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Alistair - Wednesday, December 4, 2019 - linkTo be a bit more clear, the touch responsiveness and screen is better with my android, and the text message integration with windows is amazing (bring imessage to windows and maybe I'll get another iphone).
Raqia - Wednesday, December 4, 2019 - linkYeah, there's obvious appeal to the seamless consumer electronics that Apple produces. They have an easier job than the likes of Qualcomm with its dozens of partners and on average end up with better results as well. I'm very impressed with their latest iPad Pro myself.
However, their homogeneity poses great risks to consumers and industry competition in the long run. They do not allow competing store fronts on their platform (which they should be forced to open with licensing on FRAND terms) and charge an exorbitant 30% fee to software writers.
Their much touted security may only locally obfuscate severe bugs in their very large ecosystem:
Their treatment of suppliers is downright abusive, cheating business after business such as Dialog, Imagination, and Qualcomm out of their IP and stifling the ability of the industry to support competing products. There are real perils of vertical integration:
I hope Apple continues to keep the industry on its toes with its excellent execution, but I also hope it opens its platform, by regulatory force if necessary.
generalako - Thursday, December 5, 2019 - linkThat's not a fair comparison, seeing as the 4 XL not only has an underclocked SD855, but also UFS 2.1 and not the best software performance optimization. Compare it to a OnePlus 7(T) Pro, which has much faster storage (UFS 3.0) performance, larger and better RAM management and proper performance optimization in both interface and in relation to the CPU, and the difference you claim to see will vanish. Just do yourself the favor and look at comparison videos on YouTube.
If software smoothness is what's important to you, I get your grievances. But then again, 90Hz makes up a lot of that (and more), and OxygenOS is probably the most stable and smooth third-party interface on Android after Pixel UI.
name99 - Thursday, December 5, 2019 - link"the snappiness of iPhones doesn't have especially much to do with peak single threaded integer throughput so much as IO and memory performance coupled with tight integration of iOS with hardware."
People keep claiming this. But that SAME tight OS integration has existed on every iPhone since at least the A6 and A7...
Even so, every year I can tell feel the increased fluidity of the new phones. Even at iPhone 6 people were claiming that phones were fast enough, that they never dropped frames. And yet each successive 20% to 30% annual boost is notable in feeling that much smoother, especially as ever more of the UI is built around swiping in different directions rather than tapping.
Are we NOW maxed out? Certainly when I use my A12 and A12X based phone+iPad I don't NOW feel any delays in the UI that bug me. (Every year it's got better; with iPhone 6 it was at the point of "thank god I don't have to wait", since then it has been "yes, definitely smoother, no stuttering, feels right").
And you could say, at this point, OK, good enough, we don't need to do more. Certainly plenty of people seem to think that way (many on the Android side, at least some on the Apple side). But there's is still so much more phones COULD do. Where's my real-time translation (text and speech)? Where's my assistant fixing my typos at the sentence and paragraph level, rather than at the basic (and not THAT accurate) word-by-word level?
If you change the question from "is my phone now fast enough" to "what would I like my phone to do, to hell with practicality or current software technology" you look at CPU design in a very different way.
Apple is certainly on that second track. ARM and QC I think also are for the past few years, though it's not an especially natural place for them, and I wouldn't be surprised if the inside voices pushing for excellence are in a fragile position, liable to be ousted if there's a single false step...
The small cores, larger caches, better buses / IO, GPU compositing functions, and the new AI units are much more responsible for typical user experience than peak CPU single threaded performance, and indeed Apple excels here too but not to the degree they do over Android SoCs in the single threaded metric. Apple is riding high on the positive wave of press and user perception over its excellent CPU performance though due to its being one of the only components on an SoC that's easy to systematically benchmark and publicize.
Sharma_Ji - Wednesday, December 4, 2019 - linkIf you get time some someday, use some snappy android phones from likes of 1+, Asus, etc.
Ironchef3500 - Thursday, December 5, 2019 - linkI am starting to feel the same way..
generalako - Thursday, December 5, 2019 - linkThat gap is NOT widening. It is closing. SD855 essentially cut the gap by a 40%, to its lowest point in many years. Even SD865, with A77, is making sure that gap has not widened (in fact, slightly decreased). So your comment is false.
Where the gap has been widening, is in Apple's efficiency cores and in GPU performance, however. Here, ARM and Qualcomm have a lot of work to do.
Kabm - Wednesday, December 4, 2019 - linkNow there are a market for gamer chip. But before QC don't have room as Apple as they have integrated 4G modem. The 865 is the first to have the same room as Apple
ksec - Wednesday, December 4, 2019 - linkWhile Geekbench is not a perfect benchmark ( No Benchmark is ever perfect ), it is a good tool to estimate performance.
The best Single Core Performance of 855 is around ˜710, so a 25% increase would be around 900. an iPhone 8 does 900+, iPhone XS does 1100, and iPhone 11 does 1300.
Of coz MultiCore would blow past iPhone X or even XS. But I dont care much about MultiCore Performance. You are still fundamentally limited by Single Core performance.
And of course, your System Performance ( Not your CPU performance ) depends a lot on Software, NAND Speed, Controller, Memory etc.